Assistance to Timor-Leste

let the timorese decide their own future. hope will be better country without indonesia, because indonesia better without e.timor.

whatever dude...i'm glad e.timor seperated from indonesia. thanks to our beloved president habibie for his brave intelegently. now indonesia is on track & indonesian faces the future w/ optimistic. oz lose d'face & destroy relationship w/ indo for being "the guardian angle" to timorese. hey where is portugese ?,still in europe huh..help ur brothers in asia. even "the monster evil criminal" indonesia makes e.timor can be accepted in ASEAN integrity...& who win ???..noone, but who definetly lose everything?? d'timorese.

you on the other hand cloudwarrior won't get rid of me that easily!

to him....

"So this will be my last reply"

If only we were so lucky!

hah,

I like how you're trying to twist this back to Portugal and the Portuguese ever since your first reply.

I guess you need a bit of a History lesson, which is actually in one of the links I have posted, and if you look hard enough - on many books written on Portugal's colonisation patterns not only in TL but in other parts of the world.

Look at Goa (a much better analogy to TL than the Phillipines - the biggest mistake you made in your analysis), they were annexed by India in the 60s, yet the Indians udnerstood the Goese were different, and treated and respected them as such. No repression, no language forbidden, nothing like that. Nowadays Goa is as peaceful as it was during Portuguese occupation.

In fact it's a hippie haven.

Same can be said on Macao and the Chinese. Peaceful reannexation, respect for local habits and communities. Macao is nowadays the gambling hub of Asia, and has even surpassed Las Vegas in the amount of casinos and money being spent there. (and has a per capita income higher than Portugal's in fact)

it's no wonder you don't understand why oil wasn't explored as you demonstrate so little on the historical context of both Portugal and TL. I guess in the end you just don't want to. You're attempting to belittle me and my country because you yourself feel belittled. I don't care much so you know

I happen to have a very close friend who lived in TL for over three years working for the tourism office of TL. I spoke to him on a weekly basis over the internet and had second hand accounts of what it's like there. I also happen to know a police officer who lived there as a peacekeeper for some years. Just so you know I even applied to work there in a NGO but in the end, it just didn't happen.

But as you can see, by making me talk about myself, your argumentation has become ad hominem. I don't have to prove myself, my country or anything to you or anyone. The explanations are all there in my previous posts, rest is rethorics and I don't want to turn this into a Portugal/Indonesia/Australia contest out of respect for the people of TL. They deserve it.

I just wish TL the best.

You are worried about Indonesia's reputation. I couldn't care less about Portugal's. A country with over 900 years of history (mostly peaceful for that matter), with so many friendly countries worldwide, can afford that kind of stance in the world.

I have already stated what I thikn should be done in regards to this particular situation and how the World bank should tackle it. In the end, that is the only important thing to be discussed here. As I don't think anyone challenged my proposals or wants to discuss them, I will refrain from replying to you especially because I don't think you get it.

So this will be my last reply.

Take care.

@pedroix

You never really answered my question. Have you been to Timor Leste or not? Since you did not answer my question, I assume you have not. Have you even been to that part of the world?

Its the difficult to explain to a person who has never actually been to that part of the world. Go to Timor Leste and go to the highlands where the vast majority of people live and you will understand what I am saying.

As for the language you might be able to read bits of the newspaper because of the loan words, but I am sure you would be hard pressed to find your way back to Dili if you were dropped off in the hills of East Timor.

"You are obviously not aware of the ties that exist with Portugal and the rest of the Portuguese-speaking world for that matter with TL , and your comparison to the Philipines just shows how you don't understand the context. What's the analogy

Again, if that was Indonesia's stance in regards to TL, no wonder that it failed (epically)."

Well the same could be said of Portugal's rule over East Timor for over 250 years. It took the Australians less than 10 years to extract the oil wealth from the Timor Gap. Where was the Portuguese / companies doing all that time in the 1950-60s?

bismarck,

I truly have nothing more to say.

You seem so worried to prove the insignficance of the history, the culture, and the language of the peoples of TL, on one hand.

At the same time you seem to want to find some sort of distorted geo-strategic basis to your argumentation - in which the culture of TL should just simply be wiped out and forgotten, and be replaced by an English-language artificial - culture which has nothing to do with them...errrm.... what are you trying to achieve really? Just proves you didn't get it ever since 1999!

And just shows why the politics Indonesia tried to implement in TL from 1975 till 1999 failed so utterly. If you cannot respect a culture, how do you expect to be a benevolent and successful occupant of a given nation?

My points have been made, and I have given a basis to my argumentation. Your accounts on linguistics are ludricous as you clearly don't know the distinction between tetum and "lingua da praça". The fact that I can read that newspaper which is proof of that. The rest is explained in my other posts and I don't want to repeat myself

I will let everyone else who reads the thread of posts to make their own opinion.

You are obviously not aware of the ties that exist with Portugal and the rest of the Portuguese-speaking world for that matter with TL , and your comparison to the Philipines just shows how you don't understand the context. What's the analogy?

Again, if that was Indonesia's stance in regards to TL, no wonder that it failed (epically).

I reiterate my stance, there is a need for continuity of the programmes of the World Bank, but the World Bank should try to find better cooperation agreements with rest of the organisations that are present in TL. This will probably have to involve the government of TL, the Portuguese-speaking organisations, and others.

There's nothing else to say, really. Pragmatism is the key.

@pedroix

"Mestiços are pretty much common in East Timor and 98% of them are Roman Catholics, one of the reasons why they were repressed by Indonesia. Are you Indonesian?"

First why do you accuse me of being Indonesian. I advocated that East Timor should have adopted English when it became independent. How is that exactly an position that an Indonesian would take? I have bashed Indonesian rule. Said it was horrible. Actually the Indonesians are thrilled that East Timor adopts Portuguese instead of English or Tetum as their national language. Why? Don't have to worry about Australia taking it over. If it was Tetum, they would worry about the East Timorese trying to unite the Western half of the island.

Mestiços are not common in East Timor. I have presented facts from an Portuguese University, its less than 1%.

http://www.ci.uc.pt/timor/language.htm

I guess you don't even trust Portuguese sources. Secondly, at the time of Portuguese left, only 40% of East Timor's population was Catholic in 1975. In fact it was during the Indonesian occupation, that Catholicism really spread.

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol3no1/east_timor.htm

The irony was the General that lead Indonesia's invasion of East Timor in 1975 was Catholic (Catholics and Protestants are heavily represented in the officer corp of the Indonesian Military).

"As to this question I will reply with a recent article on the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/13/opinion/13fishman.html

basically market speculators trying to bring down the euro. Nothing more than that."

Need help quote a sociology professor? My question for you does he or you have 80 Billion Euros. Well he does not, and I don't care what he has to say.

"You say that only a small percentage spoke Portuguese, fair enough, but this happens in any other former colony. In many African nations, they have a European language as their official language, although it is only spoken by a minority being that the vast majority speaks another langauge. And in any case, tetum the local language is actually pretty much a Portuguese creole :

http://suara-timor-lorosae.com/home

this is a Timorese newspaper in Tetum. I can understand 90% of it. What they did was make Portuguese official so they could communicate with the rest of the Portuguese speaking world, using a more standardised version of their own language."

You are full of it. Tetum is not a creole. If Tetum was creole why is that they are having such a difficult time learning Portuguese? Actually I put a Portuguese article through Babel translator it had no problem recognizing it as Portuguese. For the Tetum article it could even give a translation. I studied Malay-Polynesian languages, looking, outside the some of the vocab having latin (ie Portuguese) most of it clearly Malay origin. Here is Tetum at its most basic form -- Lord's Prayer

"Ami Aman, iha lalehan,
Tulun ema atu hahí Ita Naran;
Halo Ita Nia reinu to’o mai ami;
Haraik tulun ba ema atu tuir Ita Nia hakarak
Iha rai nu’udar iha lalehan.
Ohin Ne’e, Haraik ai-han lor-loron nian mai ami;
Haraik perdua mai ami salan
Nu’udar ami perdua ba ema halo aat ami;
Labele husik ami monu ba tentasaun,
Maibé hasai ami hosi buat aat."

http://wikisource.org/wiki/Ami_Aman

Here is Portuguese

Pai nosso, que estás no céu,
Santificado seja o Vosso nome.
Venha a nós o Vosso reino.
Seja feita a Vossa vontade,
Assim na terra como no céu.
O pão nosso de cada dia nos dai hoje.
Perdoai as nossas ofensas
Assim como nós perdoamos a quem nos têm ofendido.
Não nos deixeis cair em tentação,
Mas livrai-nos do mal,"

http://www.prayer.su/portuguese/portugal/

Either you are brilliant linguist or you have a very active imagination.

I have to ask you have ever been to Timor Leste? Its a dirt poor place, and the last thing on most people's mind is wanting to be part of Portuguese sphere. They wanted the Indonesians out because they were nasty. Esoteric notions of belonging to the "Portuguese world" for the Tetum speaking subsistence farmer who make up the bulk of Timor Leste population's is a luxury.

Your whole assumption is that Timor Leste is some sort of mini-Mozambique where 50-60% of the population speaks Portuguese, that majority of the people were Catholic in 1975 and there were alot of mixed bloodied people. The data shows that it was not the case.

The Austronesians. which the people of Timor Leste are, are a fickle lot. If you believe that they will speak Portuguese for long you are going to be in for a surprise. The Filipino's were ruled by Spain for 350 years, and where subjected to heavy Spanish presence. They were ruled by the Americans for 50 years. Very few Filipino now speak Spanish, and their English is getting worse by the day. Most Indonesians were Buddhist/Hindu for 1500 years, now most are Muslim (the past 400 years). What has not changed in all these instances is the Malay-Polynesian identity / language.

Cloudwarrior,

Your reasoning is a bit circular. You're trying to make us believe that the only logical conclusion one could take from this report is that another language should be taught, yet you agree with me that it's really not about WHAT language is taught, but on HOW it is taught.

I will try to be brief:

a) TL wants to keep its independence and for them that means being part of a larger Portuguese speaking world, with which they feel some kind of affinity with.

b) This means that they have chosen Portuguese as one of the official languages. The reports from the World Bank only confirm what I already knew from the press here, that there is still a great deal of problems in implementing a fully functional educational system

c) I don't see how this has to do with the language itself

d) I don't think the people of TL will want to change to another language "just because" the first trial failed so they should start learning another language. They're not computers they're human beings, part of a nation, of a culture, with an identity.

e) Perhaps the World Bank's next move, and a wise one would be to hire Portuguese staff. There are many Portuguese around who would be more than happy to take on that specific job. I don't truly know the details of the World Bank's intervention but it is clear to me they didn't make an effort to do just that. If they speak Portugeuse, get Portugeuse-speaking staff, or at least coordinate yourselves with the Portuguese-speaking NGOs, governments and etc who are also willing to help.

that is all.

@pedrolx

I am not here to defend Australia or Timor Leste’s honour. I am simply correcting your continuing falsehoods.

Firstly, you should really read the article (and link)… perhaps for the first time. It is a report from the World Bank’s independent evaluation group on its FAILINGS in Timor Leste. One of its main failings was in education. And funnily enough it was because at the request of the new government, which was trying to dismantle the Indonesian education system, it distributed teaching materials in Portuguese.

Its OWN SELF evaluation has shown that by 2009 more than 70 percent of students tested at the end of the first grade “could not read a single word” of a simple text in Portuguese.

This isn’t some anglo conspiracy by the World Bank or any English speaking country. This is the hard fact on the ground AFTER the World Bank had followed the Timor Leste government’s directive.

I’m sorry if this fact is “a serious offense to the people of TL and their plight for freedom and more than that, happiness”.

I don’t see it as that, but more that a young country is realising that it is able to make its own mistakes and is now reaping the consequences. As you say, “It matters little what language you teach to a human being, as long as you teach it correctly. This is pretty much common sense to me. Perhaps the World Bank should have worried about hiring Portuguese-speaking professionals instead of complaining about the use of Portuguese”.

To then state “What I know from what I read in the press here, is that both Portuguese and Brazilians have been sending textbooks to East-timor, as well as teachers, in order to help with forming the proper basis for a public system of education”. So you read in the paper that Brazil and Portugal were helping teach Portuguese in Timor Leste but when the World Bank claims that this has failed, you turn and blame them because they are “an English-speaking institution”.

So your source is from the Portuguese press? Perhaps reading this report will broaden your horizons.

You “find it appalling that an institution that should be completely unbiased would complain or send an indirect message to a sovereign government complaining about the choices they have made”.

Do you not understand the definition of auditing? If the World Bank were to ignore the problems that it has encountered, whether through fault of their own or not, it would be negligent. Do you not think that would damage Timor Leste more over the long term? Sycophantism would seem to only serve sensitive people like you.

And now to your views on Australia. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The more I read about lusophobia, the more I realise that the Wikipedia entry you gave is more a listing of incidents against Portugal or Portuguese and not some anti-Portuguese sentiment running rampant in any particular country.

The Australian section is specifically lame in that its first source is from one university professor (whose impartiality I have previously demolished) and the other a dead link to a newspaper article. This is hardly proof of some vein of lusophobia within my country.

Indeed based on this, you would have to consider Australia to be amongst the most anti-British or anglophobic nations on Earth.

Your link again highlights the shortcomings of Wikipedia – that any entry can be created with little actual proof. So yes, I would have to say that you are wrong.

I have yet to comment on the Timor Gap oil reserves, however your reference will be SEVEN years old next month. I suggest you read up on current events:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/jscot/reports/85/6.html#Heading8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Certain_Maritime_Arrangements_in_...

Timor Leste is an independent country and Australia has a duty to pursue and maximise benefits in any international negotiations. So far we have both won.

As to lusophobia in Australia, I do not only base myself in that article. I am glad you checked the man's credentials and realised everything was alright (what a relief!). In fact I read other accounts in the press here (can't bother to look them up), and noticed that said lusophobia even made it into the article on lusophobia in wikipedia! Check it out!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusophobia

Maybe I am wrong (I am fully aware of how the low standards of the press worldwide these days - including the Portuguese one!)

AS to what I said on petroleum, well, it was also on the press here and elsewhere

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australia-casts-a-sh...

I admit that my first posts were those of an angry person. I detest when ignorance influences not only the collective perceptions of a nation, as even its outcome. I am certain the people of TL deserve better than that.

I will not really meddle in TLs affairs and whichever bit of the Timor Sea belongs to this or that nation. I just hope, as you say, that Australia fulfills its obligations, and helps this nation get back on its feet. I would also hope my country does the same with or without a crisis.

I am glad to hear that your government is committed to it. The past cannot be altered, the future can. And I sincerely hope that TL's future is a bright one, and not the horrible one some were describing here with a casualty that truly unnerved me.

Cloudwarrior,

It matters little to me that your replies were long.

Although I truly do not understand throughout your posts, whether you are trying to defend Australia's honour, or that of Timor-Lorosae.

I will try not to be long in my post. Of course people can have their own opinion, and I can have mine. In my honest opinion, some of the first people to post here presented us with either a completely "anglo-biased" account of facts (if not so say that most of them are completely ignorant in TL's history and/or culture). And that is, at least from where I am standing, a serious offense to the people of TL and their plight for freedom and more than that, happiness.

The World Bank either we want it or not, is by its very nature an American, and hence an English-speaking institution - therefore in my honest opinion (again) also biased in the assertion that teaching English and not Portuguese(or any other language for that matter) would have made a huge difference in TL schooling . That in some sort of distorted way teaching their children and adults English and not Portugeuse would somehow change the outcome of any programme. This reasoning is completely false, in my opinion.

It matters little what language you teach to a human being, as long as you teach it correctly. This is pretty much common sense to me.

Perhaps the World Bank should have worried about hiring Portuguese-speaking professionals instead of complaining about the use of Portuguese. As this would go against the identity of the people of TL!

From what I perceive, some people claim that this is the will of TL elite and not that of its people. Well, let's make a thought experiment. Imagine I'm an Asian superpower, and for some strategic reason, I send my troops to Australia, force all its elite (probably most are of British descent) into exhile, and implement a programme of ethnic cleansing in which English is forbidden. Then Australia manages to get its independence back . What language do you think they'd choose? It's the same thing. Indonesian occupation tore up the social fabric of TL, which was centenary. Xanana, Ramos-Horta and Ximenes Belo are just trying to bring it back to where it was pre-1975. Why is this wrong? I truly do not think either three of these, and others which constitute TL's "elite" truly want to make their people suffer even more than what they already did! They are just being loyal to the history and culture of TL!

WHat I know from what I read in the press here, is that both Portuguese and Brazilians have been sending textbooks to East-timor, as well as teachers, in order to help with forming the proper basis for a public system of education. I had heard of the difficulties in implementing the system, but one must understand that we are departing from very very low, so it's not like you can solve it in 10 years time.

I find it appaling that an institution that should be completely unbiased would complain or send an indirect message to a sovereign government complaining about the choices they have made in order to protect and uphold TLs cultural and historical habits!

That is all. I don't see why on Earth Portuguese is such a big worry anyway.

And last but not least.

I’d have to say with no negative growth, <5% unemployment, a shrinking deficit and little government debt, that yes, we still are booming – luckily for Timor Leste, the Australian government can only expand our assistance now and in the future.

But I have left the best till last. I have been perplexed at your continual claims of Australia’s lusophobia. And I would have to say that I was shocked to discover that your ENTIRE claim is based on one article. Indeed, many of your statements come from here.

Now I am not sure what is greater. Your audacity or foolishness in accusing an entire nation of discrimination based on one lecture by a university professor. The transcript on your link is not verified as accurate, it is not a published work, there is no peer review, no sources or references stated.

It has the same veracity as someone standing on Hyde Park Corner lecturing ignorant passers-by. Indeed, it is surprising that it contains spelling mistakes and uses British and American spelling for many words instead of the correct Australian.

Dr Geoffrey Hull also shows he has a vested interest in stating he has ‘carefully studied Timorese linguistics and culture over the past twenty years [and sees] the decision to revive official Portuguese in East Timor as both justified and feasible’ and the fact that from 2001 to 2007 he was research and publications director of the Instituto Nacional de Linguística, the national language authority of the of Timor-Leste.

If this is what you consider “well documented”, then let’s have a look at this article.

First off, it is written by an Australian born Doctor of historical linguistics. His Wikipedia page reads like a sycophantic curriculum vitae and exemplifies all the fears and shortcomings of a publicly compiled encyclopedia in dealing with living people. I will not denigrate his knowledge or ability, after all he has testified before our Senate on the Indonesian occupation. However, I find several major flaws in the transcript you provided. He is not debating a subject but presenting his own view and opinion.

His basis (and I assume yours) for the lusophobia in Australia (he even has the gall to call it a TRADITION) is based on the following examples:

* Australia’s surprise (he uses the words puzzlement, incomprehension, irritation and scorn) at the choice of Portuguese as an official language (not unsurprising when you consider it is not that utilised in this region of the world)
* Condemning the usage of calling Timor Leste a colony/former colony (due to the fact it was a região autónoma) – even though he then uses the words decolonisation
* That most Australians have ignorance of Portugal’s role in Timor Leste’s history
* Negative comments on Portugal’s colonisation around the globe
* Media highlights of conditions in Timor Leste at its time of decolonisation
* The misspelling of Portuguese names – if you can believe this, he states ‘one unconscious but SURE manifestation of Lusophobia was shown…. in practically every Australian newspaper…. the constant misspelling and distortion of the Portuguese names’

If this is proof of discrimination, then I will clearly state that we are also Anglophobic, Francophobic, Russophobic, Indophobic, Sinophobic, Nippophobic and on and on.

Further his arguments go on to say that any push for English as a language of Timor Leste is that Indonesia encouraged contempt for anything Portuguese and that ‘Timorese youth… uncertain and insecure about their own culture, many of the younger generation are easily manipulated by foreigners now working hard to promote English as the dominant language for various self-interested reasons’. Also he share the opinion of ‘CNRT and of the Church… that a generation deprived of the universalistic culture formerly taught in Portuguese schools and nurtured on Suhartoeist materialism and narrow state ideology is poorly equipped to make mature value judgments about language. Their call for a referendum on the official language shows a dangerous tendency to politicise language without any real understanding of the underlying sociological, educational and other cultural issues crucial to enlightened language planning’.

Enlightened language planning..... I suppose it is hard to have that perspective when you are poor and looking for work or advancement.

He then goes on….. in an almost self-hating manner in describing the ‘unfair advantage that English currently enjoys as the common language of the 'liberators' of the nation. And whereas the Indonesians had suppressed Portuguese in the schools, they had encouraged the teaching of English. In the face of this threat of anglicisation through the power of prestige, Timor's civil and Church leaderships are now appealing to Portugal and Brazil for support in restoring Portuguese in civil society and especially in the schools’.

In other words, most Timorese can’t be trusted to decide these matters and should be paternalistically guided so as to help them make the ‘correct’ decisions.

@pedrolx

I am in full agreement with you in saying the Timor Leste should be independent. However you need to also accept that other people have their own opinions and sometimes these are just as correct and valid as you own.

However your statements attacking Australia are NOT in reply to any comments on this forum and are false. It is unfortunate that I need to do something that I loath seeing on this site and that is post an extremely long-winded and detailed reply that few people will take the time to read.

You started your first post here calling people ignorant and the your second with:
“I know it seriously upsets the Australians… that East-Timor became independent, and that they decided, out of love and care for their former metropolis Portugal to go back into the hands of the Portuguese-speaking community”.

You have no basis for this claim. If anything you should read up more on Australia’s dealing with President Habibie in 1998/9 and the military actions of the past 12 years which blow your statement out of the water.

So to your post:

“As to which country is helping more, I don't want to turn this into a contest”
Me too! But I won’t sit here while you spew lies in an attempt to bolster your country’s own credentials.

TL has “remained forgotten for so long by Australia and Indonesia,
and even nowadays”

How can a country that we border be forgotten? Has Portugal forgotten about Spain? If anything, after Timor Leste’s abrupt decolonisation and annexation, Portugal itself withdrew and dealt with its own problems, in a sense forgetting about Timor Leste, until rediscovering her voice more forcefully in the early 80s.

Even though Australia recognised the Indonesian annexation, many Australians continued to protest and some even participated in the resistance movement. Our government made a wrong decision then, but didn't hesitate in 1999 or since.

Indeed a prime example of this is Xanana Gusmão’s wife, Kirsty Sword Gusmão, who was born in my home town and met her future husband after teaching him English by correspondence whilst under Indonesian imprisonment.

“you have articles like this one which are unable to understand the people of Timor Lorosae, and why they use Portuguese or want Portuguese to be an official language”
Actually if you read the article, you will find that it doesn’t say that at all. It clearly states that the adoption of Portuguese as a language has had a consequence. You continually harp on about how Portugal has aided education in Timor Leste and yet the World Bank has found that “a full cohort of the population may be functionally illiterate”. This is therefore a direct reflection on Portugal.

Cloudwarrior,

Yes I was ranting, and still am, because it angered me to read such nonsensical posts in regards to Timor Lorosae. How dare some people say that this nation shouldn't be independent? How dare they provide a language for them to speak, compoetely overlooking thei culture and history? Don't expect me to be happy about it.

I did use "east-Timor" and "East-timorese" as toponyms in my posts but that was just because it's simpler to write.

As to Australia and Portugal, I did notice how Australia is (or was?) booming economically and how it quickly surpassed Portugal in terms of per capita, I remember some 20 odd years ago Portugal and Australia's per capita being similar.

As to the civil wars that devastated Angola and Mozambique for decades, they were more of a product of the then Cold War than they were of Portugal's decolonisation process (which was admittedly bad I do agree with that).

In the case of Timor Lorosae, though, things were very different. As I have explained in my previous posts.

As to Australia and its involvement in Timor Lorosae, as well as its lusophobia this is well documented

http://www.ramelau.com/tetum/language-issues.php

As to which country is helping more, I don't want to turn this into a contest, I guess what angers me the most in this whole affair is how it remained forgotten for so long by Australia and Indonesia,
and even nowadays, after all that has transpired, you have articles like this one which are unable to understand the people of Timor Lorosae, and why they use Portuguese or want Portuguese to be an official language. Try to understand this nation a bit better, or else the cause will be lost. That's all I am trying to say. They deserve it!

I will not argue on whether Portugal is or isn't exempt of Timor Lorosae's fate, but at least the Portuguese Republic is trying to help in all ways it can.

As to aid, both financially and physical. Yes, despite only having half Australia's population, Portugal has 1/5 our GDP - this is reflection on both our countries and I will let you dwell on that after stating that Portugal has a 900 history and Australia's is only 223.

Portugal might be the largest money donor to Timor Leste but you act as if it is the largest DONOR.... which it is not.

"Portugal, Brazil, contribute to military assist and train the east timorese and moreover through the peacekeeping forces there, in fact when the UN mandate terminates the East-timorese government has already announced that it was to keep the Portuguese GNR there, at their own expense"

"There are at least a 1,000 bilateral agreements between Portugal and East-timor in regards to education and training and there are quite a lof of non-governmental isntitutions on the ground"

"There are many Portuguese MDs on the terrain helping in improving the overall Health of the population"

"After the country's independence, the Portuguese have helped in building schools, hospitals, in implementing a telecommunications system, helped study the tourist potential of the island, and lobbied for Timor-Lorosae in the international arena"

Time for a few facts of my own:

Australia lead INTERFET into Timor Leste on 20 September 1999 at the behest of the UN after the violence of the vote for independence. We had 5,500 personnel at its peak, 50% of the entire INTERFET force and it was lead by an Australian. The cost was also borne by Australia.

During the 2006 crisis, the Australian government stated it had troops ready to deploy on 12th May, after a request for assistance on 24th May, Australia had troops on the ground the next day. The number of troops eventually exceeded 1,000.

Australia currently has 475 personnel in Timor Leste.

Australia is helping to development the Policia Nacional de Timor-Leste (PNTL) through the Timor-Leste Police Development Program TLPDP. In 2008 this was funded at $53 million over the next two years and involved helping to develop more than 2,000 PNTL members located outside Dili. This funding was double the PREVIOUS four year allocation. That is a six year commitment to building up the country's policing ability.

Indeed, according to Auditor-General Performance Audit in 2003 our aid and assistance between 1999 and 2004 was estimated at A$2.65 billion including AusAid, defence spending, police spending, plus other government departments such as health, agricultural research and quarantine.

That is A$2.65 billion in 2003 dollars for only FIVE YEARS.

http://www.anao.gov.au/~/media/Uploads/Documents/2003%2004_audit_report_...

Scroll down to Appendix 13 on page 122 to get an idea of some of the small and important projects undertaken and funded by the Australian government.

There are hundreds of examples of Australia aiding Timor Leste and our military and financial commitment over the past decade is ample proof of that. To state otherwise in some vain attempt to denigrate Australia or boost Portugal's post-colonial credentials. Some of the facts I have listed are already years old and we are still providing assistance.

I would never belittle Portugal's assistance to Timor Leste, so I think you should strongly reassess your attitude to statements such as the one below:

"etc. etc. etc. So don't give me any kind of lies in regards to what is going on in East-timor because it is nothing but appaling that it has to be Portugal and not its neighbours Indonesia and Australia the one helping reshape this country.

The rest is just propaganda because you want esat-timorese oil".

For someone who claims to know so much about your own country and Timor Leste, your rudeness is unforgivable and your lack of knowledge is shocking.

@pedrolx

It has been quite interesting to read your posts.... though some of them border on ranting.

Your naivety of Australia is quite staggering - I was surprised to say the least when you stated Australia "has a history of discrimination towards the Portuguese". REALLY? How exactly? I've rarely heard such an unfounded claim before.

First off, you take great pride in calling it Timor Lorosae - the official short form name declared by the government is Timor Leste. You do however slip into using East Timor quite frequently too - this is quite funny when Australia is one of the only countries to use East Timor officially.

Secondly you seem to be under the false belief that Australia (and/or Australians) are seriously upset that Timor Leste has chosen Portuguese as one of their languages. I'm not sure where you get this impression or fact from. This choice has not hindered our economic or political cooperation in the least. Indeed I have never once heard it to have been any impediment whatsoever to our relations.

Australia, of course, has a vested interest in a stable Timor Leste. After all, it lies only 640 km off one of our capital cities. It is one of only six countries that we have a maritime boundary with. To think that Australia does not therefore find a stable, prosperous Timor Leste desirable is quite farcical.

To some of your other assumptions/claims:

"the country was granted independence in 1975 until it was (illegally) occupied by Indonesia (to which Australia turned a blind eye, by the way)"

You have a severely twisted view of your own country's history. Whereas most European nation's colonies started gaining independence during the 1950s and 60s, Portugal proceeded with a 'Guerra do Ultramar' in an attempt to stymie such independence. However, it backfired in leading to the Carnation Revolution. You have a very romanticised version of events if you think that Timor Leste was GRANTED independence. The rapid withdrawal of Portuguese colonial administrations directly lead to civil wars in Angola and Mozambique and left Timor Leste unable to defend itself from an Indonesian invasion.

An invasion that Australia shamefully recognised. It is a great tragedy of our history that the East Timorese paid such a high price for our insecurities regarding Asia and communism. But please don't act as if your country was somehow not complicit in this.

"think you should compare on what has Portugal done in Timor Lorosae in 200 years and what has Indonesia done in 20 years."

Timor Lorosae was a Portuguese colony for far more than 200 years. And of course colonisation was never a good thing, I definitely do not defend any form of colonisation, not does the average Portuguese Joe for that matter - but for better or worse it happened - and not only in East-Timor. In Timor Lorosae, Portugal's colonisation changed the identity of the East-timorese and this cannot be disregarded, or changed. It's just the way it is.

They are different, like I said, they are in their identity and cultural habits perhaps closer to countries like Mozambique, or regions like Macao or Goa than they are to the rest of the Indonesian islands. This is why Indonesian occupation never worked! This cannot and should not be ignored! And their identity as a people as well as their history, traditions and culture cannot be forgotten.

As to the rest I don't have to provide proof of anything.