Banyan

Asia

Pakistan's government

Generals to the left of us, judges to the right

Jan 12th 2012, 7:16 by S.S. | ISLAMABAD

A DEBILITATING confrontation between Pakistan’s army and its civilian government, a kind of slow-motion showdown that has persisted through four years of Asif Zardari’s presidency, broke out into open hostilities this week. At the same time, the government is fighting a battle with the courts, which the generals hope will force Mr Zardari (seated to the left, above) and his coterie from power, thus sparing them the trouble of staging a coup. The courts’ threat to the government should reach its climax in the coming week.

The legal case concerns a scandal—“memogate”—that reaches all the way up to Mr Zardari. His close confidante and former ambassador to America, Husain Haqqani, is accused of being behind an anonymous memo that made a “treacherous” offer to Washington: to rein in Pakistan’s army in exchange for America’s fulsome support of the civilian government.

This week the normally mild-mannered prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani (seated to the right), denounced as “unconstitutional and illegal” affidavits that the army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani, and the heads of the army’s chief spy agency, Lieutenant General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, filed in December in connection with the memogate proceedings. Mr Gilani was furious that the testimony of the generals, which was at odds with the government’s position, was lodged without consultation.

It didn’t help soothe military tempers that Mr Gilani had made the remarks to a Chinese newspaper—while General Kayani was on a tour of China, perhaps Pakistan’s most crucial ally. Editors at the People’s Daily, incidentally, didn’t dare print the interview. They know too well where the real power lies in Pakistan. It was left to the official Associated Press of Pakistan, a government mouthpiece, to relate the prime minister’s incendiary comment.

The army responded by saying that Mr Gilani’s remark “has very serious ramifications with potentially grievous consequences for the country”, adding that by contrast they themselves had “followed the book”.

Then for good measure Mr Gilani fired the retired general had been serving as the top bureaucrat at the defence ministry, and replaced him with a civilian loyalist. Excitable analysts saw this as a possible prelude to an attempt to sack the army chief—it was just such an action which precipitated the last coup, in 1999.

Those who suspect that the current government is about to be sent packing say that the sudden urgency is because of the elections for the senate, which are coming up in March. Mr Zardari’s party, the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP), is expected to gain a blocking majority.

But in fact a coup now is unlikely. The army has enough on its plate: a conflict against Pakistani extremists in the north-west; a resolution for Afghanistan left to stitch up; and then an apparent lack of solutions for the country’s dire economic problems.

So the real action is going to happen in the courts. The memogate hearings coincide with the revival of a case even more dangerous for the government. This concerns a legal amnesty granted to the president, which the Supreme Court has already ruled to be unconstitutional. This week the court declared the prime minister to be “not honest”, and gave his government until January 16th to comply with its orders to reinitiate a dormant Swiss corruption case that had been brought against Mr Zardari or face the consequences—which include, the court says, disqualification of the prime minster or president. Also on Monday the 16th, the accuser in the memogate case, a mysterious American businessman of Pakistani ancestry, Mansoor Ijaz, is due to arrive in Pakistan to testify.

The generals and the judges will keep Mr Zardari’s back to the wall. He will continue to manoeuvre on different levels to frustrate them. That means the government will remain, in effect, paralysed.

Readers' comments

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Chess-Writer-888

http://www.economist.com/node/21542216/comments?page=9

FlameZ in reply to Chess-Writer-888 Jan 15th 2012 13:33 GMT

I rather suggest you to read the history of Goa before and after Portuguese invasion.
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Reply:

Here is the handover of Hong Kong and Goa, below. See the difference.

Goa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8QXDV2mynE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKpnO4b6Ppw&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Hong Kong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukXktCut_C4

Chess-Writer-888

http://www.economist.com/node/21542216/comments?page=9

FlameZ in reply to Chess-Writer-888 Jan 15th 2012 13:22 GMT

You said I'm illogical? are you even reading my comment or have you gone seriously mental ill.

1. A map is made of line and curves. Just for the purpose of written and spoken English standards it is the lines which show the borders on the maps.

2. I never said Macartney-Macdonald's line as a claim line by India.
I said Macartney-Macdonald's line is a claim line by China.

3. Yes posts setup by India was beyond the McMahon's line. I myself have posted it in one of my comments stating that it is a manipulation of McMahon's line by Indian agents.

4. Talks are going on at governmental levels but not ending with desirable results. Me and you are common citizens, at least as far as I think. We have no access to many important but confidential documents which both our nations will not give up. Without them how can you come to a permanent solution. Mare discussion without the exact proofs will only lead to more misunderstandings and further disputes. This wont help.
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Reply:

1. A line demarcates the positions of things and a map shows the area. Please ask your real British English teacher.
2. This is the sentence which I am trying to interpret:
"In Chinese terms it is the Macartney-Macdonald's line which shows that a part of AP is the southern part of Tibet."

What Chinese terms are you talking about?
The Macartney-Macdonald's line demarcates the Chinese claim to Kashmiri region of Akai Chin area. The Macmahon line demarcates the land border problem in part of Arunachal Pradesh (South Tibet). You had put the Macartney-Macdonald's line for Arunachal Pradesh (South Tibet). You mixed up the two. I don't know who is mentally ill.

3. Then you agreed that Nehru's forward policy had ventures into Chinese territories and beyond the disputed area. So the India-China border war was a defensive war for China.

4. Can you check if you can make links to the Paki defense web and not blocked by your company security software?

Chess-Writer-888

http://www.economist.com/node/21542216/comments?page=9

FlameZ in reply to Chess-Writer-888 Jan 15th 2012 13:09 GMT

reply to #comment-1207145

chess:
"You are the only who do that. We have no such information. Are you sure it is not given to you by the Indian RAW?"

reply:
Its given to me by the web browser I use. Even a primary school kid knows where to fine the comment number. RAW has got better work in top secret engagements.
-----------------------------------------------------

Reply:
As I had commented before, you are the only one with this comment number. It is no shown anywhere else other than a link in your e-mail browser. It is no use to mention the comment number for anyone else other than you.

Chess-Writer-888

http://www.economist.com/node/21542216/comments?page=9

FlameZ in reply to Chess-Writer-888 Jan 15th 2012 13:32 GMT

reply to #comment-1207193
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_top_speed_of_nuclear_submarines
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply:

I will take Wikipedia as a reasonable source of information because they are opened to revision by any one with a valid reasons. However, I would not take the attached link for question and answer forum as a reasonable source of the speed of the submarines. Besides, the actual speed of most nuclear submarines are not public information. And I don't believe nuclear submarines are to top the speed of 70 knots.

Chess-Writer-888

http://www.economist.com/node/21542216/comments?page=9

FlameZ in reply to Chess-Writer-888 Jan 15th 2012 13:01 GMT

For manufacturing curry or having a cow you don't require license. Neither does curry and cows pose threat to anyone.
If the Chinese had supplied Naxals with curries and cows, I'm sure India wouldn't have alleged China for it.
India is not judgmental, its just that truth is in front of our eyes but we are not able to prove it entirely.
Its a matter of common sense that Bangladesh and Nepal depend on India for their economy and weapons, they simply cannot afford to supply such expensive Chinese weaponry to the Naxals and certainly not in such quantities. So its pretty clear who is the convict.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Reply:
I think the Naxaulites have the international backing from every countries even by India. As according to your logic, the fact Naxaulites or Maoist in possession of China's weapon is a reason to allege China to support them for their activities and ideological struggles, then they have the backing of the all the world in the countries because they possesses some quantities of weapons all over the world including handmade ones by the Indian themselves.

Also, I accused the Indian of manufacturing of all the curry in the world because some Indian claim to be the original source of curry. As according to your logic, Indian should be alleged to be the sour source of curry in the world, irrespective of other countries to manufactured the same.

haldabd

Its simple,Pakistan has to have the democracy and civilian government for its survival as a integrated country.Politicians,Judges,Military, Civil Society and over all the people of Pakistan should be careful for any misdeed by the conspirators in civilians and military.If you people love your country you must upheld democracy by any means.

Liveinhope

START Again

This page is malfunctioning.

November - to put it simply , which Military dictator has done some good for Pakistan, both economically and socially ?

And then also which one of the dictators have done badly for Pakistan, and how ?

November in reply to Liveinhope

""November - to put it simply , which Military dictator has done some good for Pakistan, both economically and socially ?""

Well, I really can't say if Pakistan has ever had a good dictator. What I'm saying is that whenever there is a civilian govt. the only things that seems to happen in Islamabad is meetings, disagreements, meetings, walkouts, powerouts, violent rallys, asassinations, meetings, committees, walkouts, powerouts, bycotts, no confidence votes, early elections, meetings, demonstrations, public rallys, powerout, black outs, walkouts and more meetings.
It's like a class in an elementary school where the teacher is absent.... playtime!

You say, I don't want to learn from history. Maybe you're right. I live in today's world where I see rich Indian filmstars run over and kill 6 people with a drunken BMW doing 120KPH in a 50 KPH zone and getting off the hook using their clout. This oligarchic system refuses to prosecute it's own kith and kin.

Where would India be today without its "democratically elected parliament" known as the East India Company? Where would it be without the Queen Victoria, or her viceroys?

Let me guess..... alternating under Sikh and Afghan rule.....no Democracy as we see today... no railroads, no irrigation system...no English and no IT technology.

If you want to thank something for your modest headstart in the world of commerce today... thank the most democratic British Raj

Liveinhope in reply to November

November
never realised how much we were in agreement.
Yes- true about the British legacy - they might have robbed you and me of our inheritance, but they left us with permanent institutions.

Would we have been under an Afghan rule or sikh rule ?I doubt it - I figure that there will always be a Mao or Lenin in every country in the world.
Look at what has been happening in Nepal. That would happened to India at a much earlier point.
And all the Chinese commentators tell me that that would have been very good for India
all that is just speculation.
What we have is all we have.
You brought the Bollywood stars into this for a reason?
I am sure that these people get away with a lot of murders - But the generals yayha Khan, and Zia-ul-huq got away with much worse.

So what you are saying is you don't care what type of Leaders you have - as long as they do't have publicly announced disagreements, walkouts, violent rallys etc.

Dare i remind you that people in Egypt and Syria, as well as Libya and some of the states in the Emirates would give their eye teeth to have most of those things happening in their countries ?

The critical difference between the Dictators and the Democrats makes all the difference to the morality and ideals that a country stands on.
And that difference is : the democrats are always accountable to the people, and the generals are accountable to no-one but themselves.
I have, long ago, come to undferstand why people like Assad or Gadddafi,. general Than Shwe of Burma were so unwilling to let go.
If they ever let go - they would have to account for their past misdeeds to the Public and perhaps to the International criminal courts.

To me it is a gloious thing that instead of killing each other, people walk out of meetings, or that when workers cannot find reasonable working conditions, they go on strike.
decisions by committee are much better then dictatorial decisions.
Disagreements - the verbal type, are so much better then blowing up mosques of other sects.
Powerouts are probably due to the terrible state of the Economy, a legacy of Musharaff.
Boycotts - i would rather that then shoot outs at the polling booths.
But having seen what happens at Swat valley, Is it not better to have the rule of law the getting Rich people on kangaroo court trials on the whim of a Taliban commander ?

All said and Done, You still speak from the safety of the English Welfare state.
You don't think that your ideas have any effect on the political landscape?

you will be surprised - especially if you are a Public speaker !

November

East Pakistan seperated because of the incompetence of Pakistani leadership. This seperation with it's associated war and violence is proof that Pakistani peolple were not able to govern their own affairs... come millitary or civilian government.

The present democratic leadership is again engaged in power plays, instead of getting busy with eradicating poverty. Who care who is ruling the country when the stomach is empty and the house is dark and cold? In the last few years of democratically elected govt. power blackouts have engulfed the country and the jerks in Islamabad have not even been able to come up with a simple village solar power dish collector that could work on its own without grid connection.

They can't exploit their own coal reserves, they can't dredge their canals, they can't plant trees and stop deforrestation, they can't stop importing luxury goods .... they can't do anything!

Is this the democracy you are praising? Or do you praise democracy in Pakistan because you think a dictator would be a threat to India?

Democracy in Pakistan is only for a couple of million rich elite. The rest is forgotten rubbish.

Why not something better? A Joseph Stalin ?

indica in reply to November

November

Since 1958, for many decades, on and off, Pakistan has had dictatorships by various Generals, 'Khans', 'Huqs' and 'raffs'!! Did they do noticeably better than any of the civilian governments?

Joseph Stalin and Mao turned up at a moment in history of their countries, very very different from our times. Sorry, we cannot make them to 'order' any longer.

For a start, in our times no country, not even North Korea, can have millions of people starved to death [as both of these eminences did] or send millions sent to Gulags where most of them died - have you read A.Solzenitsin? - without the rest of the world knowing about it and making a huge fuss.

People of the Indian sub-continent are similar in one respect, their political and social behaviour. They will not take Stalin or Mao type of tyranny they way the Russians / Georgians of those times or Chinese of those times did. The mass movement against such dictators will unseat them.

Sorry, there is no solution in the direction you are looking.

Sorry too that democracy happens to be an inefficient and slow modes of government - in the absence of 'collective intelligence'.

But all alternatives in the context of the Indian sub-continent will not do that much better while the price paid in lives and needless wars would be very high.

India has no particular reason to be scared of Dictatorship in Pakistan, although she may think likelihood of Pakistan launching armed actions are more.

India accepts her destiny, as the Great Bhagavad Gita teaches, stoically but with full focus on fighting well those that pick a fight.

Che sera sera..... "See your dharam (righteous duty) Arjuna in the midst of emotional upheavals - difficult times and happy times".

Liveinhope in reply to indica

@indica

I am sorry, but the man who taught you history has a problem.

Mao - to start with, was a despot who held china back for over 25 years. China would have progressed much better without him.
He was also responsible for the needless deaths of millions during the culture revolution.

Stalin- another despot - also responsible for the deaths of millions.
His industrialisation brought Russia up to modernity, but created a culture of a non-market economy and therefore a lack of technological progress and eventually an economic downfall.

The real reason why the Soviet union broke up and Communism fell off the edge, was because the Soviets could not afford to compete against a better economy like America in financing the Afghan war and the 'Star Wars' of Reagan.
This is of course pertinent to Pakistan - Wars and battles are lost, not because of a lack of will, but because of a lack of resources.

For November the saying that is appropriate - 'People who don't learn from history, are condemned to repeat it.'

indica

Today, I listened to Premier Gilani's speech in Pak's National Assembly. He did well. He sounded sufficiently confident, not in the least nervous over finding his government between 'the rock (Pak. army) and a hard place (the Sup.Ct of Pak).

The Pak. army may find that a Coup d'Etat won't be that easy this time, despite the travails of Zirdari and Gilani.

But in the medium and longer terms, Pakistan as a nation must give up her 'Hate Hindu-India' stance.

Pakistan is like the younger brother who was determined to separate from his larger family. Much to the dismay of the family, he got some properties as 'his share'. But the younger brother was never sure if he wanted to forget his family and wanted to disappear for good, as far away from his family, physically and psychologically.

That young brother stayed around the vicinity of where his larger family is, looking over the fence to see what the family he left is up to. He is churlish about the share of the properties he got, constantly complains that the 'family cheated him', gave him less than what he was entitled to.

This younger brother joins some enemies of the family with the ultimate goal of destroying the family to which he once belonged. His focus is not so much on his own health, physical and mental, but the destruction of the larger family of which he was once a part.

He is consumed by hatred of the family so much, that he does not let any chance go by, if he can fan disaffection amongst the remaining members of the family.

Much to his dismay, the family is doing much better than he is.

But he continues to befriend all goondas of the neighbourhood to undermine the family.

In the meanwhile, everyone in the area secretly laugh at his obsession, some loathe it too.

A former American Ambassador to Pakistan said in a BBC interview that he was glad to leave his posting in Pakistan when he did -

"If one more Pakistani General had come up to me to say how wicked the Hindus are, I would have puked (vomitted)".

kentiwari

The Community of this areas (pakistan) is suffering from the day they were split from the Great British India, for the welfar of European Armament pedlar(include USA), if this part of India wasen't created, then this part of our planet Earth would have been the the Richest part of this planet Earth, I beg the new Master of this planet earth to make this so called Pakistan unite with it's old home India, and let them prosper like rest of the India;
Cllr Ken Tiwari (Oxford UK)

V. C. Bhutani

This is unfortunate. From the moment of its birth Pakistan has suffered from paranoia that it was destined to be a great nation and proceeded to prove it by claiming parity with India. World renowned economists and observers have held that the proportion of resources between India and Pakistan is 9:1. And yet Pakistan's leaders, both civilian and military, have time and again fooled their people into believing that Pakistan's existence was in danger and therefore it needed to build a massive fighting machine to save Pakistan from the danger that was India threatening Pakistan. Then they get their maulanas to deliver the judgment that Islam is in danger because of Hindu India, Christian West led by the US, and Jewish Israel: it is so easy to rouse rabbles with an appeal to religion and the 'duty' of engaging in jihad against India, US, and Israel.
In all the 65 years of its existence, Pakistan's leaders have consistently neglected the task of development and nation building. As a result people have remained without proper education and the means of forming an understanding about any matter of importance. People have no option but to follow where their leaders take them, whether it is a huge army, nuclear weapons, more taxes, or anything that Pakistan's leaders can think of - except something that will contribute to the making of a better life for the people.
Even today even the intellectual class does not examine questions of development, economy, industry, and trade, but they concentrate on analyses of strategy and security, which are top-heavy items but they have the merit of appealing to the leaders and the generals. Once the profundities have been delivered, it only remains for the leaders to follow them and lead people into ever deeper mire of poverty and adversity. To be sure, nothing happens to the wealth and resources of the upper and moneyed classes who continue to be safe in their well protected residences.
In an armosphere like that it is unlikely that anyone shall emerge to attend to the task of service to the people. No one should expect anything from Kayani, Gilani, Zardari, or Bilawal. They are non-leaders who couldn't care less for the country.
V. C. Bhutani, Delhi, India, Jan 13 2012, 1440 IST, vineycb1@vsnl.com

siddsa

Round table of power 'sharing' between civilian govt. and army enthralls everyone in world again. Pakistan does has theatrics to pull attention to itself time and again.
No matter how poor the people are or are suffering equally under military rule or civilian rule no govt. pays attention to it. War mongering and keeping up with jingoistic and conspiracy theories seems to be official govt. policy, civilian or military.
A failed nation which keeps lowering the bar on international relations, diplomacy, fight against terrorism.
Wish I could say good riddance for present govt. but most likely it would be replaced by another same like it. Civilian or army all are corrupt and leave only after being hounded out.

Music is about to stop, let us see who sits on chair and who is out.

MysticFrog

It's not Pakistan, in general (pun intended), but Zardari, specifically, who is to be blamed for the quandary it finds itself in. A crook of the first order, he scoured the emotions of an entire nation, usurped the presidency and continued to pillage the country with little leadership and lesser morals. I am glad the Army is there to control despots like him.

Nirvana-bound

They look like two well fed & fully satiated vultures, smirking over the Pakistani carcass they just feasted upon. Pakistan is a long lost cause, in its final throes, as it spirals inexorably into painful self-destruction..

ONTIME1

That killing of those 24 pakistani soldiers was not a mistake, it was deliberate retaliation for them knowingly firing on friendly troops under NATO control and aiding and abetting the enemy....this should happen everytime you betray a friendly force in favor of a enemy like the cult islamics.

bikaneri

It is obvious to any non pakistani, that Pakistan's threats are all internal. India, China and rest of the world will be relieved, if they can see things as they are, instead of fighting imaginary battles, with imaginary enemies.

Pakistanis are generous, hard working and polite, but paranoid about external, non existing threats. Why keep such a large army ? Relax, India will never attack, Nor for that matter any other country.

An Army chief feels superior to an elected Prime Minister, President and he gets away with far more, than his other counterparts in the world.

This is the problem.

Too much conspiracy, too much airing of differences thru media and very little cross party consensus on helping raise the standards.

Silly attitude towards India and India too should help out with positive statements.

Deep mistrust and the common man pays the price always.

greatmongo in reply to bikaneri

This is a typical thing for poor countries...

Instead of fighting corruption, poor infrastructure and poor courts you create an external enemy!

For Pakistan it is India...

They fight over Kashmir which is really really stupid because Pakistan cant even manage the lands it already has... so why claim more?

bikaneri in reply to greatmongo

Germany and France live side by side, have a different culture, language and the rest, but both countries spend their money on building trade, infrastructure and the rest. India and Pakistan have a similar culture, language and huge need for infrastructural funds, but spend money on fighter jets, insurgents and propaganda for hatred.

If this silly money, that is spent on defence, is transferred to building hospitals, state of the art schools, large motor ways, fast trains etc, the coming generations will not only be grateful, but will also turn this beautiful sub continent into an economic powerhouse.

Could each side publish the price of their defence menu, item by item, for a common man to compare against schools, hospitals and educators?

And let the common man vote on this topic, on both sides.

greatmongo in reply to bikaneri

Sure.. but Germany and France do it after 1000 years of bitter fighting....

So maybe Pakistan and India just need this adolescence period to be over and they realize that it is much easier to cooperate...

Although I would question whether India really needs Pakistan..

Liveinhope in reply to bikaneri

@Bikaneri.

You analysis and comparison between India-Pakistan and France-germany shows a lack of depth.

France and Germany do not analyse everything through the Bible, whereas too many people in Pakistan analyse through a reading of the Koran.

Why did East Pakistan separate from the Country?
the answer I usually get is that it was the India's fault, or that it was Allah's wish.

people like November continue to philosophise that a strong Dictator General is the best thing that could ever happen to Pakistan, and of course he would morally and financially help history move in that direction.
This type of thinking is quite common with Pakistanis.
Mind you people like November and other armchair philosophers love to ignore the abysmal history of Pakistani army dictators.

BUT then November lives in the safety of a very Democratic England.His philosophising would never affect his own health and welbeing.

In democracy one can get bad as well as good government - BUT one can change Governments peacefully.
Let me quote Winston Churchill here:

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government -except all the others that have been tried.”

This statement applies so well to Pakistan.

Kabeer K

America's ally number 1 - with friends like these - you don't need enemies (Iran) :-))

Aamir Khatana in reply to Kabeer K

In your response to:-

America's ally number 1 - with friends like these - you don't need enemies (Iran) :-))

Let me correct you America is not a good friend ever. US left Pakistan in great mess after the defeat of Russia in Afghanistan and this time if Pakistan is prioritizing its interest its a good thing and show that Pakistan has learn t its lesson.

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In this blog, our Asia correspondents and our Banyan columnist provide comment and analysis on Asia's political and cultural landscape. The blog takes its name from the Banyan tree, under which Buddha attained enlightenment and Gujarati merchants used to conduct business.

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